tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3415815443006499013.post1582207385017065329..comments2023-04-27T04:14:30.583-07:00Comments on Straight from the Heart: Did Jesus Ever Really Exist?Donna Farleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11884647995104136193noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3415815443006499013.post-62342381903076534262014-09-03T14:13:56.077-07:002014-09-03T14:13:56.077-07:00Well, that's par for the course where ancient ...Well, that's par for the course where ancient history is concerned. (See, e.g., the discussions over how seriously to take the gossipy stories about the Roman emperors found in Suetonius, etc.; the written sources say Caligula claimed to be a god, but there is no evidence of this in the Roman coins from that period, etc.)<br /><br />I read the first two volumes of Meier's work about 20 years ago (he's up to four now, and there might be more), and compared to a lot of other scholars working in that field, he always seemed like something of a moderate to me. When I think "ultra-skeptical", I think of someone like Burton Mack.Peter T Chattawayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07395937367596387523noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3415815443006499013.post-75576086188666114082014-09-03T10:17:13.902-07:002014-09-03T10:17:13.902-07:00I am plowing through his massive 2-volume work, in...I am plowing through his massive 2-volume work, including the footnotes. Unless any saying of Jesus can be proven six ways to Sunday, it is rejected out of hand as a creation of the early church. Fr. Lawrencehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13933248163052873060noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3415815443006499013.post-56988932550584903922014-09-03T09:57:19.883-07:002014-09-03T09:57:19.883-07:00I think that's the first time I've ever he...I think that's the first time I've ever heard Meier called "ultra-skeptical"!Peter T Chattawayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07395937367596387523noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3415815443006499013.post-47932888885868372302014-09-03T09:24:10.577-07:002014-09-03T09:24:10.577-07:00The Josephus question is examined at great length ...The Josephus question is examined at great length by John P. Meier in his book A Marginal Jew, vol. 1. Even the ultra-skeptical Meier acknowledges that though the bit where Josephus describes Christ had undergone Christian editing, there is an authentic core. I am not surprised that the apologists never quote it; it does not advance their case very much. And in their day no one ever thought of denying that Jesus ever existed.Fr. Lawrencehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13933248163052873060noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3415815443006499013.post-77222763785903579932014-09-02T23:02:08.823-07:002014-09-02T23:02:08.823-07:00Re: Reason #1, my understanding is that quite a fe...Re: Reason #1, my understanding is that quite a few historians do doubt the authenticity of that Josephus passage in its entirety, partly because the earliest Christian apologists never quoted it. But there is another passage in which Josephus describes the martyrdom of "James, the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ" (an event that took place when Josephus was 25 years old, and which he only mentions because of the effect it had on the local political scene), and fewer historians question the authenticity of <i>that</i> passage, as I understand it.<br /><br />Re: Reason #2, I have always found it remarkable that the earliest reference to the Last Supper is in one of Paul's letters to the Corinthians -- and he only brings it up because the Corinthians weren't handling the Eucharist properly. If it hadn't been for that issue -- or if that one letter of Paul's had gone missing -- the skeptics today would no doubt be saying, "Paul had never heard of the Last Supper." But of course he did. And as with the Last Supper, so too with the other events of Jesus' life. Just because Paul doesn't mention them every chance he gets doesn't mean he didn't know about them.Peter T Chattawayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07395937367596387523noreply@blogger.com